Gabriel Zucman (Paris, 39) is France’s current-day economist thanks to a simple and explosive idea: a 2% tax on the wealth of billionaires. His proposal, designed to correct the “anomaly” that allows the ultra-rich to pay a much lower effective rate than the lower and middle classes, put this Thomas Piketty disciple at the center of his country’s political debate. Zucman has been everywhere for weeks: his article Billionaires don’t pay any money on the place and we all have our fins (Billionaires don’t pay income tax and we’re going to put an end to that), which had been released only a month earlier, had become a publishing phenomenon with sales of nearly 50,000 copies. In it, he outlines his proposal: applying a minimum tax of 2% on assets exceeding 100 million euros – about 1,800 fortunes in France – so that the wealthy can contribute to the balance of public finances.
The proposal, which is supported by left-wing parties and a large majority of public opinion, has been rejected twice by the French parliament, but Zucman does not consider the battle lost. He tells it in an interview in his office at the Paris School of Economics, a somewhat monastic space with a plant, a computer, a bicycle helmet and a blackboard containing the tax formula that has managed to reopen the discussion about tax justice across Europe.
I ask. How do you explain the success of a book about taxes?
answer. My work reveals that, in proportion to their income, billionaires pay far less in taxes than everyone else. The majority of the population bears a total tax burden ranging between 25% and 50% of their income. Billionaires pay between 0% and 2% of their assets. This violates the principle of equality before taxes, which is a constitutional principle in France. For years there was a great deal of uncertainty: general statistics were silent. Several research teams have worked to dispel this silence. Today people want to take ownership of that knowledge. That’s why they read my book.
S. Are taxes no longer seen as a technical issue, but rather as an issue of social justice?
R. The problem is that without taxes there is no society. They are a structural element of democracy. Depending on whether we set the indicator at 0%, 50% or 90%, we get completely different societies. In France we also have a debt of 116% of GDP and a deficit of 5.4% even in the period of growth. We must clean up the accounts and distribute the effort better.
S. At the same time, the fortunes of billionaires are rising.
R. In 1997, it represented 3% of global GDP; Today it is 14%. Its companies, all multinationals, have benefited from globalization, and their owners barely pay income tax, so they are able to reinvest their income almost without paying taxes. A stock market bubble is enough for one person to weigh several points of a country’s GDP.
S. For example, the first French fortune, Bernard Arnault, owner of LVMH.
R. His wealth is estimated at about 150 billion euros, or about 5% of the French GDP. Tomorrow it could be 10% or 15%. This happens in France, but it could happen in any other country. We could end up with individuals whose economic weight becomes enormous.
S. 86% of French people support the tax he imposed, including nine out of ten right-wing voters. Why did Parliament reject it?
R. The influence of billionaires in political life and in the discussion of ideas. In recent months, they have mobilized to prevent the proposal from being approved and have spread lies through the media they control. But we should not overestimate its strength: the forces of democracy are stronger in the long run. Imposing new taxes is always an uphill battle.
S. Do you hate the rich, as your critics call you?
R. This doesn’t make any sense. It’s not about people, it’s about democracy, and how different groups contribute equally to the common good.
S. Arnault described him as a “pseudo-researcher” and a “far-left extremist.”
R. It is the nervous reaction of rich people who know that the situation is unsustainable, and also evidence that they have no objective arguments. In the absence of reasons, Trump-style insults are resorted to: when someone disagrees, he is called a communist, and in the process the reputation of science students and universities is discredited. It is the winds of Trumpism that are blowing across the world.
S. However, you have never hidden that you are a leftist.
R. I have my convictions, like everyone else. But this minimum tax does not constitute a financial revolution or a punishment for the rich. This comes from a G20 report at the request of the Brazilian government. She suggested doing the same thing with billionaires as with multinational corporations: setting a minimum rate. The 2% is calculated so that they pay not less than the rest, but not more either. It’s not a particularly radical or left-wing idea, but it’s the bare minimum, the simplest version of tax fairness. We have identified an anomaly and we need to correct it.
S. Who allowed this?
R. It has always been there, but has been exacerbated by the recent explosion of those fortunes. In 1996, the wealth of the top 500 was equivalent to 6% of French GDP; Today they control 42%. So a 2% tax would have amounted to barely 0.1% of GDP. Today the number would be 0.8 points, which is a more important number for a country that needs to save two and a half points.
“There is still a lack of data in Spain: more detail and transparency are required from the administration. I am confident that there is.”
S. Has the Left been a hypocrite on taxes?
R. Yes, in France and throughout Western Europe. There was an implicit agreement: “Let us build a welfare state and in return we will leave you alone.” Wealth taxes have never taxed billionaires. In 1981, Mitterrand imposed a tax on large wealth, but immediately exempted even larger wealth. It was a political sinking from which we must learn.
S. Is France a country in decline?
R. No, Emmanuel Macron’s balance sheet is very poor overall, but France remains one of the most productive countries in the world and has achieved many of the successes associated with the social state. For example, Europe performs much better than the United States in health. There is much to be proud of, although we cannot rest on our laurels.
S. You manage the European Tax Observatory. What is the situation in Spain?
R. It is difficult for me to answer, because in Spain there is still a lack of data. In France, the Netherlands, Brazil, the United States, Sweden and Norway we have studies prepared in cooperation with tax administrations. There are excellent jobs in Spain, but a greater level of detail and transparency is needed. I trust that there is. In fact, this is a very modern process. In the United States there was no data until 2019. In France, two years ago. In any case, the Spanish fiscal curve is similar to that of the rest of European countries, although the level of pressure is somewhat lower than in France.
S. He confirms that the super-rich Americans pay more than the Europeans.
R. This discussion has been taking place in the United States for nearly a century. In 1933, the press revealed that J.P. Morgan, one of the greatest wealthy people of his time, had not paid taxes in 1931 or 1932. The scandal prompted Roosevelt to pass a law punishing Collectibles. Since then, some billionaires have been paying more than Europeans: about 9% of their income. However, Elon Musk or Jeff Bezos found a way to pay a very small amount. There was a year in which Bezos announced that his income was so low that he received family assistance.
S. A phrase attributed to Rousseau says: “When people have nothing to eat, they will eat the rich.” Have we reached this point yet?
R. I do not see a danger of violence, but I do see a danger of a democratic crisis.
S. If the tax is approved, will there be significant capital flight?
R. It is a classic and highly exaggerated argument. Tax exile exists, but it is not massive and can be limited. For example, by imposing taxes for a few years on those who become millionaires in France and then leave, without reaching the American model, which makes its citizens pay taxes, wherever they live, for their entire lives.
S. Today’s culture is full of fantasy in which the rich are symbolically devoured: Parasites, succession, White lotus…How do you explain that?
R. I’ve seen them all. The explosion of millionaire wealth is one of the most important trends of recent decades. It is not surprising that it also appears in fiction. The question is how to address this problem rationally, democratically and effectively.
S. He comes from a wealthy family and is the son of doctors. Does your thinking arise from what you have observed rather than what you have experienced?
R. The 2008 crisis was decisive. I was 21 years old and I wanted to understand what was happening. I immersed myself in international statistics and discovered the extent of tax evasion. Then I lived for about ten years near San Francisco, where extreme wealth and homelessness coexist. I was there when Trump won. All of this led me to work directly on public policy.
S. Have you been exposed to pressure or threats?
R. I was prepared: I experienced something similar up close in the US, when I collaborated on the campaign of Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren in 2020. Both were victims of extremely cruel hate campaigns. Financial history shows that any major reform is an uphill battle. In France at the beginning of the twentieth century, the minister who promoted the income tax, Joseph Caillaux, was attacked for years until he was able to approve it.
S. I think things didn’t end well for him.
R. His wife ended up killing a manager FigaroWho led a campaign against him. So, if we start comparing, what I have is nothing. Moreover, I assure you that I am a total Zen follower, and so is my wife. In our house you don’t go that far… (laughs).
S. In just a few months he became famous. According to one study, he is the ninth most cited figure in French media. How is the ego?
R. I never looked for this show. I try to use it to spread knowledge and encourage democratic debate. If this attention helps people have these ideas, it will be worth it.